Interview with Pong
Andrew Matzner
I spoke with Pong (not her real name) in English on September 17, 2000; she had graduated from Chiang Mai University the previous spring as an English major. When I interviewed her, Pong, who is fluent in English and French, was living at home in Chiang Mai working as a translator and interpreter. She was also busy preparing to apply to the post-graduate translation program at Chulalongkorn University in Bangkok. Pong related to me that she had been greatly influenced by reading books in her English classes and seeing movies such as Priscilla: Queen of the Desert. She wanted to tell her story in order to help educate people about what it is like to be transgender in Thailand.
I was born in Bangkok, but when I was two years of age I went to America because my parents went to further their studies in the States. We lived in Louisiana and Alabama . . . mostly in Louisiana.
Right now my father is a business person and my mother works in education. My father is from Bangkok, my mother is from Chiang Mai. They now live in Chiang Mai; but my father has a business in Bangkok and so he spends a lot of time there. So I spend most of my time with my mother and younger brother. And I am right now twenty-two years of age.
We spent about six years in America. Then we came back to Thailand when I was eight years old. Then when I was ten years old I went to America once again, to study, for about three years.
After I came back from my second visit to America, I lived in Chiang Mai. Right now I feel like I'm a native.
Since I can remember, I had not thought of myself as a boy; I felt in my heart, all the time, that I'm feminine, even though my body was masculine. My nature, what I felt in my heart, was that I am a woman. And I think I am a very sensitive person; sensitive towards love, in caring - I always care about how others' feel, about the viewpoints which other people have towards me. I'm a considerate person, and I care about how people think about me. I think about what I do and how what I do will make people think about me. So I think if I think like this and care about it, then sometimes I become very unhappy. I don't know...I try to take it easy - but I can't. I'm so worried that people will think that I will act in an inappropriate way. But I know that I don't have the exaggerate behavior that many people think queer people have. I know that my personality is tender and gentle, just like a real woman; I don't have exaggerated behavior or action. I think I am the way I am...I am what I am and I think I act the way the I am. So I am confident in who I am.
I think that maybe from the age of three or four, I was in kindergarten and I played dolls with my female friends. I didn't like being with male friends at all. I got along very well together with my female friends; we played dolls together and since then, I think my heart was very, very feminine. And whatever others might have said, I said in heart that, "I'm a woman, I'm a woman. I'm not a boy." And I was very happy to be with my female friends. And sometimes my male friends teased me. I don't know why; maybe it's the nature of children to tease those who are different from themselves.
Since then, because of playing with female friends, I changed. The second point is my parents and family. I was with female relatives more than male ones. My mother is the oldest child in her family and I had lots of aunts, but not uncles, none at all. And everybody loved me - maybe too much. I think they spoiled me. [laughs] I think maybe that was the main cause that changed me.
At first, my parents tried to change me. They tried to block my actions, and keep me from female friends, and scolded me all the time if I behaved at all like a female. Like if I held a spoon like this or if I walked in a certain way...there were many things. They would punish me if I bought nail polish or lipstick or powder. Now of course they allow me to have these things. But now sometimes they scold me and ask me why I want to have these things. I tell them that these things make me happy, because I can be myself. I don't bother anyone else when I wear makeup, so it's my right to do it. When I say this, they become quiet. But I also tell them all the time that even though I am like this, I will also be studious. I didn't choose to be born this way, but I will try to make you accept me. Sometimes they tell me that they feel very sympathetic. And I know that sometimes they cry. I think they may compare me with the children of other families. They may wonder why their son isn't a real man. Sometimes I hear them talk about this, and it makes me sad. But I don't know what I should do. Because I am a girl in my heart, my mind. Sometimes I sit alone and I cry. I cry because I wonder why I was born to be like this. I wonder if my mother gave birth on the wrong day! [laughs] I know it's wrong to think like that, because I should be grateful to my parents.
Anyway, when I was young they scolded me and warned me all the time. So I felt all blocked up and unhappy. I was very upset in my mind and I felt very unhappy being at home. Everybody was paying attention to my faults, and didn't see my positive points. So I was very happy to be with my friends outside of home or in school. Until the age of seventeen, then my parents though it over and decided that I wasn't going to be able to change and be masculine, so they let me be feminine. However, they let me be this way only if I did not annoy others and was good in the society and was not bad to other people. So right now they don't have any kind of reaction to the way I am. But I notice sometimes that they feel unhappy about my actions, about my behavior - but they keep quiet. Yes...I try not to be close with them so that a quarrel will not happen...
One of my close friends is studying in the faculty of pharmacy here at CMU. Even though she is right now twenty-one years old, her parents block her transsexuality. She is very beautiful. Her mother - because her parents are divorced - blocks her very, very much. Her mother hates this behavior and has a very severe and strict attitude towards transsexuality. So my friend can not at all get along with her mother, and they quarrel with each other whenever they're together. And my friend has changed her behavior because of her mother. That is, I think it's psychological - if someone blocks something in another person, then that person will make their action in an even stronger way. So my friend has had surgery with her eyes, her eyelids, and has had surgery for her nose, to make it more pointed, and her mother gets mad about it. So this is how my friend reacted against her mother. Her mother is very severe; I think I am lucky because my parents understand me, even though it didn't happen until I became seventeen. Now they can accept my feelings and behavior.
I began to dress as a woman when I was around eighteen years old. Because when I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen years old I was in high school and had to wear a uniform - that was required by the rules of the school. And I also had to have short hair. But deep in my heart I felt that I was a woman. But then I came to Chiang Mai University - and everything is free! I could wear long hair, I could wear skirts to class. So I felt much more comfortable than I had been in the past.
In high school, even though I had a man's body, I had a girl's actions. Some people made fun of me, but others understood what I was feeling. My teachers understood me, because they saw how I compensated for my weak point, which was that I was different from others. I compensated by being industrious in studying and getting good grades. In fact, I was able to get the highest scores in the class. So my teachers were proud of me even though I was queer, different from others. But I had good grades, was studious, and paid very good attention to what my teachers taught. So I wasn't naughty, like real men, who didn't care about studying and would make the teachers very annoyed. So my teachers were very proud of me, even though I am different. This also helped my parents eventually accept who I am. But sometimes there is pressure on me. Because living in society, I care a lot about the attitudes people have towards me. I would like to be a real woman, whom others can not distinguish from other real women. I don't want others to think that I am transsexual. I want others to see me as a real woman.
The acceptance of transsexuals in Thai society is incomplete; it is not one hundred percent. Not everybody accepts katoey. Although people accept it more than in the past. There is no violence in Thailand against katoey. I don't know, maybe it is Thai culture and tradition, which teaches that people should be kind to each other, regardless of who they are. But if somebody does not approve, they may use their eyes; or their actions; or the tone, the sound of their voice when they speak to a queer - you can tell that don't accept. And I immediately know in my heart that this person doesn't like me. And when that happens I feel unhappy inside. And I don't know how I am wrong. What is wrong with me? Did I do something to make him unhappy? No! I am not his enemy. So why does he have this kind of reaction to me? Why don't they judge my behavior instead of my external appearance? Why? If they judged from the inside, from the inside out, they would find that I'm just like a normal person.
I think that a reason why some people can't accept transsexuals is because many years ago, the mass media always presented negative, exaggerated images of katoey. These images appeared on television programs and in newspapers. So the mass media created stereotypes, and some people thought that every katoey was just the ones on TV.
But actually, there are some positive stereotypes also. Like that we are skillful in doing makeup; that we have careful thinking; have a gentle heart; we have a more gentle heart than either a man or a woman, because katoey is a kind of combination of both genders, so katoey have two feelings - we can be strong inside. And at the same time we are gentle and can be tender deep in our hearts as well. So I think this is a kind of gift that straight people do not have. And some people see these points and have positive thinking towards katoey. But I don't know if the majority of people think like this or not...I think just a minority do.
I'd like others to see me as a woman. Sometimes I wonder why I don't have small cheekbones...Sometimes I think that my facial structure is too much like a man's; I feel that somebody will see me and think, 'Oh, she's not a woman! She's a katoey!' I would like this feeling to disappear; I don't want to be distinguished from other women; I don't want to be seen as katoey.
The biggest problem in life has been about people's acceptance. I cannot bear it if everybody in society rejects me. That's a problem. I'm afraid of how other people will accept me.
I'm looking for the real love. It is very, very hard for people like me. I think that naturally a man will like a real woman. A man would like children, and katoey cannot be a mother. No matter how beautiful they are, no matter how close they are to being a real woman - one day a man will come back to the nature and find a real woman to be the mother of his children. And katoey can not be a mother. Maybe in some cases where katoey have boyfriends, it is just because he wants to try to have sex with something strange. I've heard a man say this, and it made me feel so bad. I don't know any katoey who have been in a relationship for a long time. I think that at most, among my friends, relationships last one to two years. It's an undurable relationship. It's very hurtful to be in a relationship with a man because I know that one day we will separate - he will leave me. But sometimes I would like to have this feeling; I would like to have love. Sometimes I walk down the street and I see the couples holding hands and I feel envy in my heart. I wonder why I can't have that. I realize in my heart that one day I will have a man and I will have to face disappointment. But deep, deep in my heart I'd like someone to protect me, a man who can be my husband, my boyfriend...sexual activity is not important...it's not unimportant, but I'd like someone to take care of me, to sympathize with me, to see that I am a good person, to see that I will always really give my love.
My biggest achievement in my life has been my gift in language, which I think some straight people do not have. I think it is part of my nature that I have a very gentle, very tender spirit. And I think I can concentrate much easier than others can, because of my careful thinking. So I am able to study languages quite well. I know French, English, Spanish and a little bit of Italian.
I also think that being like the way I am makes me a considerate person, makes me understand well about the world; makes me passionate; makes me sympathize and understand the underprivileged people; makes me unselfish.
In the future, I would like to live my life abroad, not in Thailand. I would like to have a happy feeling and pursue a modeling career. I would like to use my languages to be able to work in an international modeling agency. I would like to have a happy family; I would like to have lots of money to take care of my parents and my younger brother, who is twenty-one.
But I don't want to live in Thailand. I think Thailand accepts me less than the foreign countries. I don't know why. When I speak to the foreigners, I feel very happy; happier than when speaking with Thais. I don't know why. Maybe foreigners understand what I am, but Thais don't. So I feel that whenever I speak with foreigners - American, Japanese, Spanish - I feel very good. But when I speak with Thais, especially with Thai males, I feel uncomfortable. So this is the reason why I want to spend my life abroad.
And I would like to have surgery. If a billion baht fell from the sky right now, I would go and see the doctor tomorrow - or maybe this evening! [laughs]
I'd like Thai people to look at katoey from the inside out, and not at just their external appearance. They should open their hearts and re-think about what katoey do. Not every katoey acts the way katoey do on TV. On dramas they are designers, or dancers...they flirt with men all the time. These images make men afraid of kathoey, because they think they must all be like this. Of course, bad katoey do exist in society. However, people should consider very well the behavior of katoey and open their hearts and minds in a broad way. They should see that we have different personalities, not just the ones they show on TV. And that would make katoey happier. They should see the ability of katoey, not just their external looks.